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Post by fred on Dec 30, 2012 10:15:32 GMT 1
Hi Luessenhoff,
Well, two typically messed up vehicles from this collection, I also thought the long Blitz was originally an Omnibus, but I understand that it will remain as a truck for ever.
About eight vehicles are going to the ASPHM collection near Strasboug, do you know them ??
But as you say, look at e-bay in the near future. cheers paul
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Post by fred on Dec 23, 2012 14:54:58 GMT 1
Hi Lolo,
Cannot help with the correct wheels, but I also own a Stoewer lEpkw with chassis number 13998, can you tell me your chassis number for interest ?
So is your Stoewer with a 4 seat/4door body or 3 seat/3 door body, or even the Flak MG version ?, mine is a Kfz 2/40 version.
cheers Fred
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Post by fred on Dec 14, 2012 10:10:35 GMT 1
Hi,
Anybody know where any of these vehicles are headed, all I have heard is that the Stoewer Kfz 4 replica is headed for a Museum in Northern France ?? maybe
cheers paul
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Post by fred on Dec 10, 2012 20:52:11 GMT 1
Hi ,
Saw it all, there are going to be some very disappointed people in the next few weeks when they realise what they have bought.
The prices for the PG 1500 Mannschaftwagen and mEpkw were really stupid, especially as they vary between 50 and 100% fake but still got high prices.
More sensibly the Stoewers were a better buy, like the Kfz 4 Twin MG, at 32,000 USD you at least get a Stoewer chassis and front bodywork plus a very collectable Twin MG mount with two "Panzer" MG 34, so in that case it did not really matter that the rear body was rubbish, it was worth it.
But really cannot believe someone paying 32,000 USD (plus auctions commisions) for that Lorraine Tractor, although not a fake vehicle, they were built in Vichy France during WWII, the Germans never saw them or even knew of their existance, and the regular French Army Lorraine Tractor had 6 wheels per side not 4.
oh well, be interesting to see other comments,
cheers PAUL
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Post by fred on Nov 4, 2012 10:49:30 GMT 1
Hi Leussendorf,
There was never any chance of these vehicles being treated as individual pieces of gold, like a private collector would do, Guy Arend, when I visited him lived in a chataux near Ciney in Belgium, and before the Aarlon museum he had set up a museum in Bastogne in the 1970's, similar to the Aarlon museum in layout and quality, but much smaller. So from Luxembourg or Belgium I do not know.
So between the early 1970's and the middle 1980's he collected all the vehicles you saw at Aarlon, a huge achivement in one way but obviously there was no time in a schedule like that to see to every vehicle in great detail and restore it to an acceptable level, so hence my previous comment about him giving two months to his workers to complete even the most difficult reconstruction.
I can remember running about the south of England trying to find the Steyr Kfz 21 Kommanderwagen that was in storage here, so I could take photos and dimensions of the "boot" area as this was missing from his Kfz 21. Could not find it and so he had his workers make up the rear boot area from some photos. Have never seen the result.
cheers PAUL
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Post by fred on Nov 2, 2012 18:07:45 GMT 1
Hi Lussenhoff,
note ; we are taking Axis vehciles only here, know nothing of the condition of allied vehicles, but they should be better for obvious reasons.
The vehicles were originally just to be part of several diaoramas' in the new museum, so were never to be moved, certaily not under their own power, and very poor lighting ensured they could not be seen very well. Do you not remember how dark it was in that Museum ?
Mechanically tested !!!! sorry I have to laugh here, for the Axis stuff, probably never, so many were missing engines or half engines, or gearboxes etc., etc., you have to realise just how little Arend had of some of these vehicles to begin with.
I helped a guy who bought one of the lEpkw just before Kruse bought the collection, it was minus front differential, front axles, inlet manifold and carburettors, starter motor, dynamo, oil tank, and had the rear body of another vehicle on it. Only one dashboard instrument and much much was else missing.
For example, the SdKfz 250 called "Grief", again sold before the collection went to the USA, no gearbox, no engine, 100% new made armoured body (but an excellent copy made in France) and the chassis was a shortened by one axle "soft metal" tractor chassis not the armoured chassis of the 250 SPW. Absolutely no original 250 in the vehicle.
Again the two sWS tractors, now back in Europe I believe, all that there was originally were two chassis with about 4 wheels each, and absolutely nothing else to start with, how much original material was obtained later for these I do not know, not much I expect, so just made up, same for the Nebelwerfer Maultier, same for the 3 and 12 Ton tractors.
Yes it was an expensive museum to visit, and photos also were an extra charge and again costly, they wanted you to buy the coloured catalogue instead. Which I did, still have it.
Why it closed I do not really know, but believe there were disagreements between the Museum and local authorities, but most of all it was in the wrong place and had too few visitors to make it pay.
Originally Guy Arend was looking all over Western Europe for suitable locations for the Museum, where he could get a lot of passing trade, the South of England was one, Normandy was another, but of course he was from Belgium so in Belguim it was eventually sited, but not a good location.
But when it came to sell the collection, suddenly every vehicle was a top dollar excellent restoration and sold that way.
oh dear !!! cheers Paul
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Post by fred on Nov 2, 2012 10:54:33 GMT 1
Hi Luessenhoff,
Yes, not a good story, but no I do not live in Belgium, but visited Arend before the Aarlon museum was built, when it existed and when it was being sold off.
Before opening the museum, he gave his workers a maximum of two months to complete any vehicle type, in many instances they simply copied photos that were pinned to the walls, guessed a lot, and used any materials that were available at the time.
Like the lEpkw Kfz 4 MG flak, genuine chassis, about half of its mechanics, rear body copied from a photo nailed to the wall, problem was it was a photo of the prototype Kfz 4, and its very different to the production body kfz 4.
etc., etc., etc.,
cheers PAUL
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Post by fred on Nov 2, 2012 9:21:39 GMT 1
Hi, With the Axis and German vehicles you have to be so very very careful, most have large amounts of mechanics missing and "faked" superstructures, but the trucks are usually more honest, but watch out for the Maultiers.
Ref the mEpkw, the Aarlon museum owner originally had two identical Horch Typ 40 chassis, but wanted one Typ 40 and one earlier Efm 901 Stutzrader, so one was "completed" as a Typ 40 and the other as a Stutzrader, where the spare wheel is simply bolted to the body and does not revolve. Whereas on a real Stutzrader the spare wheels are mounted on an extension of the chassis, do revolve and can take the full vehicle weight when necessary. So for this mEpkw to be correct to its chassis number it will need a complete new body from the bulkhead rearwards, and seats, hood, hooframe etc., etc.,.
Ref the Lorraine 37L/SdKfz 135, its no such thing, its a shorter 4 wheel version of the original French Army 6 wheel Lorraine, and built in Vichy France as an agricultrial tractor, for later use by the French resistance with a Bren Carrier look-a-like body, armoured bodies already manufactured and stored. The German Army never saw these vehicles or even knew of their existance.
So watch out for what you buy.
cheers PAUL
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Post by fred on Jul 11, 2012 20:20:25 GMT 1
Hi Sigve,
Do you have a chassis number, that would help a lot, could be on one of the chassis at the front end(s)
I know of only two others and so parts availability will be very very limited.
Is there more to this vehicle than just the front part ?
cheers Paul
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KdF
Aug 16, 2010 17:22:53 GMT 1
Post by fred on Aug 16, 2010 17:22:53 GMT 1
Hi Cees, Well yes at approx those dates, in a book I have there is a photocopy of an original document, its titled "Volkswagenwerk" with the big DAF/Kdf swastika badge alongside it, at the bottom of the page it says "Stadt des Kdf.-Wagens", and dated "Februar 1939" . So it may well have been changed in 1938 !!
So by very early 1939 the factory is Volkswagen but the nearby town is still the Kdf-Stadt (Fallersleben), and of course would stay with that name into 1945.
Had one of the existing German car companies been interested and built the manufacturing line for the Volkswagen, Kdf would not have been involved at all, and the car could well have been the BMW-VW, the Mercedes-VW or the Adler-VW etc., etc.,
In the early design stages of Hitler's car, Volkswagen was just a project name, there was no manufacturer then for it, Porsche KG was just a design consultancy, who had no means of production,(remember all the pre-production Beetles(Kafer) were Dailmer-Benz constructed), but when Kdf became that manufacturer they of course wanted it called after their own name, Kdf, but this is not what Hitler wanted, so it became VW again.
Note; that both Porche KG and Daimler-Benz were located in Stuttgart.
cheers PAUL
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KdF
Aug 16, 2010 15:58:01 GMT 1
Post by fred on Aug 16, 2010 15:58:01 GMT 1
Hi Cees, I am not sure if you are joking about this subject or not, with your deep interest I would have thought you might already know the answer, but ;D . Anyway in case you are serious, the history is a bit like this, at one time the Beetle car, the factory and the nearby town of Fallersleben were all known as Kdf, the Kdf-Wagen, the Kdf-Werke and Kdf-Stadt. This is because the Kdf organisation, a subsection of the DAF (Deutsch Arbeits Front) organisation, was responsible for the organisation and construction of the factory for the new car. The Beetle project was originally known as the Volkswagen from an early date, but this was before anybody had been chosen to manufacture it, most of the leading German motor manufacturers were asked, but all said no, all fearing a state subsidised car at 1000 RM, would undercut their own car sales. By all saying no, they believed the Volkswagen project would be killed off. But Hitler was not to be stopped, so he made a Nazi party organisation, the DAF, responsible for building the new factory and car, and of course DAF chose one of its sub-sections, Kdf, for the project. It was only when this decision had been made that everthing was then called the Kdf-Wagen, -Werke and -Stadt. However once construction and production had started, the name Volkswagen was again introduced, but of course very few Beetles were built, it was mainly Kubel and Schwimmer, all built by Volkswagen. So yes all production vehicles are "Volkswagen". The Kdf-Wagen and Kdf Werke were quickly renamed Volkswagen G.m.b.H (in approximately 1939) but the Kdf-Stadt remained with that name until later in 1945 and after the war was over, when it was called Wolfsberg, although this town was a bit further from the factory than Fallersleben was. Attached is a diagram of the original DAF/Kdf badge that evolved into the WWII Volkswagen badge (This is the Kdf mark often found on VW vehicle parts) and after the war it was again modified and became todays Volkswagen badge. Any corrections to the above will be welcome. Hope you find this interesting and almost accurate , cheers Paul Attachments:
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Post by fred on May 4, 2009 9:05:31 GMT 1
Hi mvnut,
Ref the VW colouring as you have described above, basically I have no idea how to explain away your colours. especially there when there is nothing else under the outside tan.
However one possibility is that pre the standard darkyellow of early 1943 onwards, some earlier VW82 did leave the factory ready painted yellow for North Africa, and in late 1942 this could still be happening with newly manufactured vehicles as the NA fighting is still happening when you VW was manufactured.
There is a well known photo of VW 82 #5000 leaving the assembly line in this tan colour but with baloon tyres fitted, but baloon tyres would not last long post-war and normal tyes/rims would get fitted if indeed they all had balloons in the first place.
However I would have still thought that all VW components parts would have all started off darkgray and the yellow applied on top, however if this is a factory applied tan for the reasons noted above, heaven knows how they went about it, maybe even stripping off some of the gray paint befor adding tan ?!?!?
It also seems obvious that this VW never got to NA and if manufactured as late in the NA campaign as it seems to have been, that is no surprise.
So what is the chassis number of your VW Kubel ?
paul
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Post by fred on May 3, 2009 20:21:00 GMT 1
Hi mvnut,
A VW 82 with an low 20000 numbered body will be from the very early part of 1943, when all vehicles and parts were manufactured in darkgrey.
Very soon afterwards in approx March/April 43 darkyellow was introduced to new vehicles and all/most existing vehicles and equipments were then to be restrospectively painted the new colour.
Your VW would appear to have had this repaint and most likely done in the field to what was a very new vehicle.
There are of course always the few exceptions to this but the above applies 99.99999% of the time.
Paul
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Post by fred on Apr 5, 2009 14:17:47 GMT 1
Hi Nick, Regarding the "return to factory repair programme", there must be a German name for this ?.
Look at it this way, all armies, WWII and modern usually have several levels of repair and maintenance categories that they apply to all vehicles, again I do not know what the Germans in WWI used but it would be something like;- 1st - local kompanie/battalion level repair facilities 2nd - divisional level repair facilities 3rd -Korps/Armee level repair facilities 4th -Homeland/Reich factory level repair facilities 5th -problems too bad, so scrapped at any of the 1st, 2nd. 3rd or 4th facilities
Obviously which facility is used depends on the amount of repair that is needed.
Homeland/Reich repair/rebuild facilities must exist for everything, no vehicle lasts for ever, it either has battle damage or wear-and-tear damage., for example most Reichwehr Kubelwagen are at least 10 years old before WWII even started, many early lEpkw are already 5 years old in 1940, and the real wear-and-tear of fighting WWII has not really started at this date, imagine what the first year of action in Russia did to vehicles that were there.
The best thought is to assume that there were repair facilities for all and every type of vehicle, gun and weapon, its just a case of finding out who it was and where it was. it could be the original manufacturer or a nominated sub-contractor.
And of course when these vehicles were being rebuild in the Homeland/Reich most of the new parts they get will be whatever is then in current production.
Unfortunately there is little written about the subject, Panzer repair facilities are better known, with some tanks being rebuilt and updated several times e.g. Pz IV first built as an Ausf F1 becomes an F2 at first rebuild and an Ausf H at another rebuild, we all know this was so, and softskin vehicles were no different, but finding the evidence is very difficult.
cheers PAUL
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Post by fred on Apr 1, 2009 19:35:13 GMT 1
Hi Nick, I think you have misunderstood the photo you posted showing all those Schwimmwagen and some Kubelwagen all in one workshop.
This as you say is Porsche at Stuttgart, but all those Schwimmwagen are from the first 124 semi-hand-made pre-production vehicles batch that were assembled in Stuttgart and not by the Kdf Werk at Worfsberg.
Note; the SS numbered Schwimmwagen is not a VW166 but more like a VW 128, but again with some differences from the standard VW128, it having a narrow windscreen and some front inner hull differences.
Consequently this is Porche's prototype workshop and the VW Kubels are for sure to be there for conducting experimental and trials work on them, whilst at the same time Kubelwagen mass production was happening further north at Wolfsberg.
There is a clearer version of this photo where some of the chassis numbers can be read on the pre-produtcion Schwimmwagen, they are 166/44 and 166/47 for example. Therefore this photo would be approximately mid 1942, when all vehicles would have been darkgrey in colour anyway.
The second photo showing a mixture of VW Kubelwagen in a damaged factory (probably Wolfsberg but not necessarily, could be somewhere else), is most likely as you say to be some vehicles that have been returned from the front for major repair. This is not unusual as all German military vehicles from panzers , through halftracks down to various Kubelwagen types and motorcycles, had a "Return to Factory" repair programme as part of their planned continution of use, its standard planning for all armies in all countries.
cheers PAUL
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