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Post by S.Amdal on Oct 30, 2012 21:26:59 GMT 1
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Post by luessenhoff on Oct 31, 2012 11:48:43 GMT 1
That is a dream to many of us I think ... not all, but many of the German vehicles displayed there are probably the only ones left in the world.
However: there's a big but :
- neither of those vehicles have papers (Fahrzeugbrief), so basically that means you will never be able to register them ... unless you are really lucky and the company - if it still exists - (e.g. Mercedes) is willing to do some investigation work and then provide you paperwork which can be useful for a registration... - they look beautiful on the outside but if you have a look into the cabines and all that you will see that many small objects are missing. All in all you will still have a restoration project and not a car or truck in good condition.
- I'm trying to stop myself from the idea of participating in the bidding, knowing that the selling prices will probably be out-of-this-world... but it's difficult to resist because the vehicles are so unbelievably beautiful!
Is there anyone here who is interested in participating? Anyone here knows what problems and +- costs will have to be dealt with when transporting one of those paperless vehicles to Europe?
One thing is for sure: this is a "once in a lifetime" opportunity.
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Post by luessenhoff on Oct 31, 2012 11:55:52 GMT 1
All the vehicles come from the Victory Museum which was located in Belgium. The current owners bought it from them around +- the year 2000.
I visited the museum twice and I can still remember all of the vehicles on that auction list, where they were positioned in the museum etc.
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Post by Hans on Nov 1, 2012 0:21:00 GMT 1
once in a lifetime opportunity ??
Don't know if you know most of these vehicles are with fantasy build bodies and inside empty ! It are regular museum quality restorations. Some have nice original chassis with part original bodies , but most are to be blunt , fake !!
Ofcourse it are dreams for a lot of people , but if you compare price with what you get you're better of looking for a better vehicle !
Hans
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Post by luessenhoff on Nov 1, 2012 14:02:04 GMT 1
Hi Hans Thanks for the information. Not that I don't believe you, but why are you so sure about the so-called many fake materials? Of course I know about the "museum standards" but I had always thought these collections to be of higher quality. I've also taken a good look at the pictures and as I mentioned in my previous post: indeed, some parts are clearly missing. And of course even in the 1970s is was already quite difficult to find spare parts for the many rare trucks and cars so they must have "rebuilt" some things themselves. However, I think at least 30% of those German vehicles shown cannot be found anymore at all in the world ... Up to this day, I have always thought them to be quite genuine. But please share all the information you've got about those vehicles here with us ... it could be really helpful in deciding to participate or not. Thanks !
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wille
Generalleutnant
Posts: 472
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Post by wille on Nov 1, 2012 19:52:30 GMT 1
Take a look at the Ford Maultier, - cabin is not wartime, - tracks system is from carrier. It is not a Maultier, but a look-alike.
Wilhelm
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Post by luessenhoff on Nov 1, 2012 20:21:55 GMT 1
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wille
Generalleutnant
Posts: 472
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Post by wille on Nov 1, 2012 20:49:21 GMT 1
Hallo, The Opel Maultier looks correct, but i am not a expert of the Opel Do not now the other vehicle types, so I can't give any comments. You have to study original photos and literature and compare. Wilhelm
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Post by Hans on Nov 1, 2012 22:04:20 GMT 1
Like Wilhelm already pointed out , the Maultiers are not wartime cars on a Loyd carrier track . The Opel looks original , but there aren't enough pics to see it is .
The Mercedes is a fine example wich is quite original , the Opel 1 ton looks ok too but like in the previous post , haven't got enough knowledge about 1 ton opels .
Another good vehicle is the 3 ton Borgward , its quit original.
Trucks where not a big problem to get in the 70's , they where often in an original condition. Have been restoring since the late 70's , indeed then there weren't any parts available so only good condition cars where restored.
The Halftracks however are empty hulls with a copy body , there was no body available to copy so they build it from pics .
Didn't wrote that all vehicles where fake , but many are restored wrongly.
That 30% isn't to be found is not true , if you have time and connections there is still a lot arround ;-) !!
That was the main problem with larger collections , originallity came second place .
Hans .
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Post by luessenhoff on Nov 1, 2012 22:56:31 GMT 1
Well, I don't think chances are big to find another Adler truck as depicted on the auction website. I think the same goes for the Blitz Maultier and the small Borgward truck 1400, just to name a few. Yes, every now and then some exceptional find turns up ... but mostly in an extremely bad condition and incomplete.
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Post by Hans on Nov 1, 2012 23:12:00 GMT 1
Well , don't know anything about the Adler truck , don't even know if it is an original army vehicle or something civilian.
Howmany Opel Maultier do you want ?? Lately several have surfaced , with repo parts and without , cheap is another matter , but they are available. Have had several Borgwards , from 1 ton to 3 ton , in a very complete and very original condition. You are right the quality of the vehicles is mostly very bad , but i'm ashtonished with what turns up now and than , vehicles in original condition , complete ,wich where never for sale before !!
Hans.
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Post by luessenhoff on Nov 2, 2012 8:25:41 GMT 1
Hi Hans, I've checked ... The Adler looks (at least superficially speaking) genuine and correct: www.kfzderwehrmacht.de/Hauptseite_deutsch/Kraftfahrzeuge/Deutschland/Adler/Adler_W61/adler_w61.html"Der Adler W 61 mit Pritsche war recht selten anzutreffen" I'm amazed at what you are saying about the Blitz Maultier, but so much the better. Concerning the Borgwards: The 3-ton Borgwards can still be found (although it's not that easy) but the smaller versions are extremely rare. You can find a B1000, which ressembles the wartime L1400 a lot, but it's not the same. All smaller Borgwards I've seen on contemporary pictures are postwar versions ... maybe exceptions exist, but I'm afraid they are very hard to come by. As far as my personal experience goes, the only German truck which can really easily be found on the market is the 3-ton Blitz. The 1,5 ton is harder to find eventhough about 10% were produced after the war. Have I ever seen a wartime 1,5 Blitz on a meeting in 20 years? Yes, but only once or two times ... not more... whereas on the other hand I've seen 3-Tonners maybe 8 times as many.
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Post by fred on Nov 2, 2012 9:21:39 GMT 1
Hi, With the Axis and German vehicles you have to be so very very careful, most have large amounts of mechanics missing and "faked" superstructures, but the trucks are usually more honest, but watch out for the Maultiers.
Ref the mEpkw, the Aarlon museum owner originally had two identical Horch Typ 40 chassis, but wanted one Typ 40 and one earlier Efm 901 Stutzrader, so one was "completed" as a Typ 40 and the other as a Stutzrader, where the spare wheel is simply bolted to the body and does not revolve. Whereas on a real Stutzrader the spare wheels are mounted on an extension of the chassis, do revolve and can take the full vehicle weight when necessary. So for this mEpkw to be correct to its chassis number it will need a complete new body from the bulkhead rearwards, and seats, hood, hooframe etc., etc.,.
Ref the Lorraine 37L/SdKfz 135, its no such thing, its a shorter 4 wheel version of the original French Army 6 wheel Lorraine, and built in Vichy France as an agricultrial tractor, for later use by the French resistance with a Bren Carrier look-a-like body, armoured bodies already manufactured and stored. The German Army never saw these vehicles or even knew of their existance.
So watch out for what you buy.
cheers PAUL
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Post by luessenhoff on Nov 2, 2012 9:30:48 GMT 1
Thanks for this detailed info Fred.
By the way some side-information, you know whether mister Arend is still alive? If he is, he'll be widely in his 80s now I think.
Perhaps you live in the area of the former museum?
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Post by fred on Nov 2, 2012 10:54:33 GMT 1
Hi Luessenhoff,
Yes, not a good story, but no I do not live in Belgium, but visited Arend before the Aarlon museum was built, when it existed and when it was being sold off.
Before opening the museum, he gave his workers a maximum of two months to complete any vehicle type, in many instances they simply copied photos that were pinned to the walls, guessed a lot, and used any materials that were available at the time.
Like the lEpkw Kfz 4 MG flak, genuine chassis, about half of its mechanics, rear body copied from a photo nailed to the wall, problem was it was a photo of the prototype Kfz 4, and its very different to the production body kfz 4.
etc., etc., etc.,
cheers PAUL
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