Post by fordflathead on May 13, 2015 18:26:42 GMT 1
Hello folks! I have been away from the forum for some time, and I now see some new arguments and evidences concerning the F198T has been posted here. Very good! Ok, I will put my hands into the hornets nest once more, but not for a long preach, -just a few comments: The pictures posted on April 14, 21 & May 5 2014 all shows Ford chassis/cowls with coachbuilt cabs, which were quite common in Europe at the time, particular for vehicles destined for civilian use. Just look at the open door on the April 21 picture: Square window framing, no F198T or V3000! The illustration posted on June 23, 2014, to me clearly looks like an Antwerp built B298T with GM (Oldsmobile) cab. Not an F198T. It is no surprise you find parts on F198Ts that has correct wartime part numbers and shape. Remember the French plants were producing and supplying parts for V3000 production in Germany, Belgium and Holland up to the fall of `44, and that the French produced F01/F11 cabover has mostly identical chassis and automotive components as the V3000. Parts, left over stocks from pre-October `44 production and continous post-liberation production were all identical and used in the assembly of the new F198T. Rubber pedal pads became available after WWII had ended. The F198T cab was based on the prewar `35 US style cab which is much different from V3000 cabs. As the French did not produce V3000 cabs during the war, they quickly created the F198T cab by reactivating some of the `35 toolings, stamping out firewalls and doors, and making a new wider cabshell and simplified dashboard to create what you see. At least some cabs are simply the `35 cab split in the middle and a metal strip welded in between the two halfs to create the wide cab. Otherwise I refer to my earlier postings. I have no answers or comments to the publications and documentations shown lately here on this thread, but indeed very interesting. I am eagerly waiting for the final proof of Wehrmacht service: The picture, the ID tag!
Post by ssparatrooper on May 28, 2015 14:41:20 GMT 1
The deinstvorschrift shows a cab vollstandig! I will put a photo up of the page later and it's a FG19T in the deinstvorschrift there is no tag but as the French deny any collaboration I have found and ordered a F198T manual from SAF so I will see what that says but why would the Germans make a deinstvorschrift for a truck that didn't exist? And as I have stated all the part numbers in that dienstvorschrift match my truck
Post by ssparatrooper on May 28, 2015 22:52:38 GMT 1
Explain why it states in the german dienstvorschrift for the truck that didn't exist the cab is complete? It also states that the parts in this dienstvorschrift are unique to this French model and for all other parts see 666/10 or whatever the ford v3000 one is
Post by ssparatrooper on May 28, 2015 23:04:30 GMT 1
It states it on the front Also the cab the Germans didn't have seem to be on this vehicle in the service of a Luftwaffe unit? It has the same shape and moulding on the door and look at that lift on the bottom of the door?
FG198TS is a documented vehicle in this deinstvorschrift there is a gentleman in France restoring a maultier and he has an f198t as a donor vehicle and it came with a notek and was used by the Luftwaffe according to him
Post by ssparatrooper on Jun 2, 2015 5:23:45 GMT 1
Here is an interesting photo of an F198T being delivered to the French army of the interior in august 1944 proving the French also were using a time machine as as these were not made until 1945? The dienstvorschrift is evidence this photo proves they existed before 1945 why would the European truck programme not utilise tooling that was available ?? In the very informative study done by the Cambridge university on industrial collaboration by ford France in ww2 it states they were delivering 20 TRUCKS a day to the Wehrmacht even if they only produced them for a very limited time they done it long enough for the Germans to produce a dienstvorschrift for the Wehrmacht that states the cab was complete therefore proving the French made cabs as the dienstvorschrift states the parts in it are different to the koln ones
This is new information that was not available before as information on this period is very contradicting
Post by fordflathead on Jun 2, 2015 16:31:19 GMT 1
The pictured vehicle from the Luftwaffe unit: Captured 1935 style British barrage balloon winch truck! Multiply bolt rims, not 5-bolt, flap style hood, not alligator. Apparantly called Fordson E917T. Another picture of same truck. 20 trucks a day? Off course: 3,2t F01/11 and 5t F917/997 cabovers. The pictured truck being delivered in August 1944 is hard to tell what model. A F198T, a V3000 or something else? By the way, Paris / Poissy was liberated 24/25th August, but off course, it could be proof production of the F198 was underway before liberation. Tooling for the V3000 cab was not available until late `45 as Ford Antwerpen only used GM cabs, and Ford of Holland & Germany were still on Wehrmacht control. The F198T in France with NOTEK mounting prooves nothing. Its left fender may have been smashed at some point, and replaced by a fender from a wartime wreck, which I assume were plentifull at the time. Or the fender may have been factory installed from leftover stocks of wartime production of parts for Antwerp production and Wehrmacht spares. But now we can find a possible proof: Can we check the mentioned F198T in France for what the ID-plate says? Please do so! It should show the year of manufacture at least, if not the month. Let us pray it is not missing or replaced by something else, as seems to be the case of most surviving F198Ts.
Post by ssparatrooper on Jun 2, 2015 23:49:17 GMT 1
I knew the photo i provided was a right hand drive truck i used that to show the cabs were used in that time i did not delude that i believed the germans to have made it, i do think there is new evidence of some kind of truck manufacture by Poissy and this FG198T is an unknown truck until i found some evidence of it manufacture on paper (thanks to Wilhelm) and looking on the internet (not the best resource but due to the absence of any other at this time)
I do believe the French would do their best to hide any collaboration done while under occupation but until 43 Germany was winning! i also think i have found as much evidence available to support the dienstvorschrift and will continue to restore my Ford so i can tow my Pak 38 and drive to shows with my R12 in the back, when i recieve the SAF manual i will update this thread
The Typenschild means nothing either, its the easiest thing in the world to mess with, my V3000 had an undoubtedly original "Ford Werke" Typenschild but from another truck! The only valid point of reference are the numbers on the chassis and on parts!
So I thought it useful to add this from the Ford Vintage and Motorsport Club Cologne which is pretty clear regarding the production of the F198T.
On September 29, 1939, the Aviation Ministry ordered the construction of new trucks. However, with supply shortages, standing around unfinished trucks that were parked in a tunnel at Saint-Cloud, this was a foolish undertaking. Only with a cash injection of 220 million francs did the works in Bordeaux, Asnières and Poissy reach their production target of 1,200 trucks per month. The front was coming closer: On June 3, 1940 German planes bombed Poissy, but there was no major damage. On June 10, the order was given to retreat. On boats, trucks and by rail was everything that could be dismantled and transported from Asnières and Poissy to Bordeaux. Dollfus tried to get into the unoccupied zone, but they would not let him enter. On his return to Paris he found the two works were already under German control as well as the French group Laffly, the doors were slammed shut. Poissy now delivered spare parts and trucks for Ford in Cologne, the first trucks from the new plant. It also produced engines for Antwerp, all under the control of two organizations, the French COA (Comité d'Organisation de l'Automobile) and the German GBK (General Manager for the Automotive Engineering). During this period there was also a manufacturing proposition in Algeria to develop, so 1941 Ford Afrique SA was founded and moved the headquarters of the SAF from Vichy to Oran. With the arrival of the Allies in Algeria and Morocco in 1942 these plans were abandoned. The Wehrmacht tried to rationalize and unify. As of February 1943, the construction of their own truck was set in favour of the Cologne type in Poissy. The quality, however, remained poor. 1942 the Royal Air Force bombed four times the work and caused great damage. Dollfus’s wife, a native Englishwoman, congratulated the British pilots on their success. Her husband was against it strove to maintain production to give the Germans no reason for dismantling and deportation of employees. In 1943 he reached the classification as "spear operation S", which gave the plant more autonomy and a better deal in the materials and energy supplies secured. On 26th-28th August 1944 Poissy was freed after two artillery skirmishes on the factory premises. First, the workforce had to repair the destroyed factory buildings and the Seine River Bridge. Then began the production of trucks for liberated France and delivery to the Allies of repaired tank engines. After the war there was an attempt to sell Ford France to a competitor, however, no suitable buyer came forward. So the focus was again on the all-important reconstruction of the truck Matford 92 V8, renamed in 1946 in Ford F472. But survival did not seem safe, Dollfus brought back from his travels to Detroit two plans with backing: the design for 1941 in the US a small car and a diesel truck.