It would be nice to share any info on this particular model of French V3000S. I have one we are working on at the moment that is in very good condition and I would like to make comparisons with other trucks. The most notable difference from the German product is the width of the cabin at the hinge pillars, the shape of the door and the door pressings. the picture below is a good representation of what my truck probably looked like. the truck restored in the UK (now in Spain) also was green. any info would be handy. I have yet to find an image of the French trucks in service with the German Army. inerestingly my truck does not have the side vent on the cowl as seen on this truck and the post war F598T.
unfortunately the forums are not as dynamic as I would like. I have search everywhere for info. Im not sure but the french were possibly ordered to build the V3000S from Feb 1943 and stop production of their own trucks. I think they had some prewar designs being assembled to that point. The british plant in Holland and the US plant in Belgium seemed to have been "assembly only" factories until the German rearranged machinery to make them full production plants from 1940. because the Cologne cab and the Dutch cab have minor differences, they must have been pressing out the sheetmetal work in Holland. the French cab is quite different. It is possible that they totally retooled the press machines after the factory was liberated in 1944 but I would find that unlikely while the war was still on. If they were producing the cologne style cab why would they not carry on with that shape like other plants post war.
the differences dont stop with the cab. the bonnet pressings are different as well. They are smooth above the side airvents.
I have seen a few dozen pics of V3000S out of the tens of thousands made. here is a pic from Avranches showing a standard cologne cab and a wide cab V3000S in a ditch. the shadows suggest it has the plain bonnet. it could be a coachbuild cab or the wide french cab. It is certainly wider at the cowl and hinge pillars and also has large headlamps.
The ex SBG camo F198T has an undated SAF chassis number and a cargo tray builders tag dated 1944. the truck was originally green and has german instruction tags on the dash. this could date lower chassis numbers up to 1944. It seems authentic.
still looking for a definite answer or more photo evidence. can the chassis numbers of the French trucks be noted and forwarded to me? does anyone know the owner of the restored green F198t shown above?
Post by fordflathead on Mar 3, 2010 20:40:53 GMT 1
[img src="[/img]"] Hello! Maybe I should not write this, but after years of sporadically reading some of the forums on the web as a non-member I can no longer keep my feelings back, so today I signed up as a member on this forum to let some of the pressure out. Well, thing is I sometimes get mighty frustrated over the lack of knowledge that are being expressed by some one these forums. I choose not to give specific examples in order not to hurt any particular member, but there are no lack of fantasy and fairy-tales floating about within the WWII-centric community. I will not claim to be an expert on everything myself, but there are books to read and the web is there to search for info before expressing a view, and particulary before buying an expensive WWII collectors item like a vehicle of doubtious autenticity. OK, I know the forums are there to learn from each other! There are a number of "restored" WWII military vehicles out there, particulary "ex Wehrmacht", that in fact are post-war examples of WWII models masquerading as genuine WWII items. Nothing wrong in painting up your 1947 model truck to become a 1943 Wehrmacht look-alike as long as you are open about the stunt, but when these wannabe warriors are being presented as and even offered for sale as the genuine thing, sometimes even with a hot combat history attached to it, then you have crossed the line in my view. Let´s talk Ford V3000 that is the common Wehrmacht designation on a number of Ford models built for the Wehrmacht in Europe between 1941 and 1945. O´l Henry was a technical genius, an outstanding organizator, a brilliant businessman, nice to many, cynical to others, one of the greatest capitalists of all time if that is what you like, but had political sympathies and ideas that are considered doubtfull today. In 1940 Ford Motor Company was BIG, VERY BIG by the standard of the time. Henry had plants on almost every populated continent, and within Europe in at least 8 countries. By 1941, 2 years into WWII, Henry made money by supplying vehicles and other military equipment to ALL the major participants in the conflict, regardless of side. When the USA entered the war in late 1941 Henry lost some of his income, but his plants kept on working, gearing up for maximum production. Those plants that fell into German controll delivered allmost all their output to the Whermacht. When the war ended and a new order was established in Europe, Ford apparently wanted to get rid of their bad reputation of supporting the enemy, so they did not want to talk much about wartime production in Europe and Japan. Therefore, information on what was produced in the occupied countries, and how many examples, is hard to verify. If we now forget the history and jump 65 years forward to todays collectors reality, as far as my knowledge goes I want to point out the following: All, and I mean ALL!, Ford trucks produced in German controlled Europe the years 1942-45 shall have the year of manufacture stamped on the vehicle data plate, normally located inside the drivers door on the drivers seat foundation or inside the engine compartment on the firewall above the battery. Does it not say a wartime year, or no year, the truck is postwar! Period! The V3000 style was produced from 1942 to 1949 with minor changes. If there is no data plate you can find the chassis number on the upside of the left or right frame rail just above and slightly behind the front axle. Unfortunately I can not decode the number of the WWII European production, but if your truck has a V8 engine, and the engine is the original one, the same number is to be found stamped in the block next to the intake manifold, left or right side of it, on the horizontal machined surface the manifold is bolted to. If the number has a prefix "G" it is made in Germany, "F" made in France, "B" for Britain, "C" for Canada, and no letter means made in USA. But in many instances the engine has been changed and the confusion is still there. If the numbers are identical on frame and engine (V8), and the distributor is on the front of the egine in line with the camshaft, it is a good chanse your truck is wartime. If the distributor is mounted vertically at the rear of the block, your truck is probably postwar (provided the block and frame numbers are identical). NOTE: If there is no chassis number stamped on top of the frame rail above the front axle, the vehicle is most probably post-war production.
If all these engine stuff and ID-tag is a mess, my nex best bet is to look for signs of holes for the NOTEK bracket on the left front fender. ALL Wehrmacht Fords had the lamp mounted there. I should guess 95% of all surviving V3000 style trucks still has its original fender there. If no holes, it is post-war. If holes or bracket installation looks old, and particulary if the four holes are welded shut, you probably at least have a wartime left fender. But if there are holes or bracket installed, it can of course still be a "Whermachtized" post-war. If the battery tray has a number of holes formed as a small grille in its right fwd bottom, the truck probably is wartime production as these are for a battery heating lamp to be installed underneath the tray, and the heat going through the grille. Not all wartime trucks had this feature, if I am not wrong. If there are 3 small screw holes horizontally on line with the cab rear window, to its right, spaced 15cm apart and the last hole around the right corner of the cab, plus one more hole 15cm up from the center hole of the 3 others, then the truck probably is wartime. These are the attachment screws for the "Verbandskasten" (first-aid kit). If it has a straight steel U-beam front bumper, it will indicate wartime production. If it has rifled steel clutch -and brake pedal "pads" it may be wartime, if it has rubber pedal pads it is probably post-war. Next, take a look at the firewall at the front of the cab within the engine compartment. If there are two paralell long straight horizontal and two short vertical reinforcement ribs pressed in the firewall panel, crossing each other at the center, the truck is post-war. If the pressing has roughly the shape of a "W", separated in the middle into two halves "V V", then chanses are good the truck is wartime, but no guarantee. If the dashboard has 2 ovale instrument holes, one each side of the big round speedometre, chanses are good it is wartime production. If just one ovale hole, to the right of the speedometre, the truck is probably postwar.
What causes much confusion is the French Fords. If the cab is wider than the cowl, has "square-design" simplified dashboard and curved bottom edge of the doors, lacks the pressing along the hoodside, the truck is French. The only Ford truck production for Wehrmacht in France i can find in books and on the web is the forward-cab 3,2 ton F01/F11 and 5 ton F917/F997 series produced under the Matford brand. One source says 1000 V3000 Maultier halftracks were assembled by Ford in France, but this I have not read or seen pictures of. Most probably all the F198T "V3000-looking" French trucks are post-war, and thus was never used by the Whermacht! Therefore, untill someone proves me wrong, I dare to state that the trucks pictured in this thread on photos # 1-2-4-6-7and 9 & 10 are all post-war French, some stashed as Wehrmacht look-alikes!!!!! The Ford trucks of this style used by the French Army post-war was later to be known as "Indochina-Fords", refering to their use during the French military campaigns in Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam up until the mid 50s. Therefore the truck seen on the first picture of this thread is correctly restored in French Army post-war livery. The "Maultier" on photo 3, now I think in Indiana presented as a genuine WWII field modification using a French V3000 and the track unit of a captured British Lloyds carrier, was probably constructed in the 60s or 70s as a film prop using a post-war French truck. The truck on photo 5 may be a genuine late war, but if so the headlights are wrong as it should have much smaller diameter lights. The B&W photo shows a Ford Antwerp model B298T with GM-supplied(!!!!) cab on the left, and an Antwerp, Amsterdam or Køln/Cologne chassis with a coachbuilder aftermarket cab on the right. The US made Fords had a split windshield and fat rounded fenders only. A number of pre-42 European assembled or imported American examples were confiscated by the Whermacht and sent to the front, so preserving or restoring one of these in Wehrmacht livery is not wrong as long as you make clear if your example was in Wehrmacht use or not (genuine NOTEK-bracket holes), but you must not call it a V3000! I doubt any were ever converted to Maultier. The 1938/39 US Ford now in England Configured as a field modified Maultier is of course newly constructed, no secret, but I am 99% sure no such modification was constructed by the Germans in WWII. So it is historically fake. Bren Carrier track components, yes, 1938-39 US Ford, no! That is all for now folks! Any corrections?
I have aquired this Ford V3000s and have started its restoration. It is quite clearly a Poissy built Ford not a Cologne one, this I know because the engine cowling is set in from the cab the Cologne models were flush, also the instruments are in French . However I know that Poissy ceased assembly of the 3000 in late 42 when they experienced sabotage problems, parts were then shipped to Cologne for assembly. Or so I thought - on close inspection of the typenschild it shows the maker to be Stihl - Stuttgart!! Stihl, during the war were and indeed still are, makers of chain saw's, but until close examination of the typenschild I had no idea that they were involved in truck assembly. I have scoured the net for information and have also contacted Stihl for any information they might have. The "Typenschild" has been badly mauled but I can make out its legend which is as follows:
STHIL - MASCHINEN FABRIK STUTTGART - BAD CANNSTATT TYPE G169N MOTOR G0G96N HUBRAU? ZUR SCHMIERUNG VERWUNDE MAN O__TARABEL WIE: MOTOR GARGOYLE__WE_TA - MIX ODER MOBILOEL AF MISCHE__SYARBU____ KUPPING _____ MOBILOEL AF
I will post some more pictures soon.
Last Edit: Jun 8, 2010 10:43:27 GMT 1 by volkswagen
Just as a gentle reply to Fordflathead, your statement that a number of the trucks pictured "are all post-war French, some stashed as Wehrmacht look-alikes!" is a bit of a sweeping generalisation with which I disagree. In June 1940 Poissy management passed to the Germans and began to produce trucks of 3 to 3.5T capacity and received the prefix "F" for France. The German code for the V3000s was G- Germany, 1-1941 9-3.9L V8, 8-wheelbase, T-truck. It seems to follow that a similar model produced in France would carry the same US Ford coding with the prefix F. Therefore if your Typenschild reads F198T it means F= France, 1=1941, 9=V8, 8=wheelbase, T=Truck. Depending what the Typenschild on the individual vehicles say will determine the age of the vehicle. Another way of proving the provenance on your vehicle is to look at paint layers on mine for example the entirety of the cab interior is still in its original TAN (Dunklegelb RAL 7028) though the rest of the vehicle is dark green and sanding away the green reveals Tan paint beneath! On the subject of Maultier's, the cab and chassis were all made at Poissy and then shipped to the Ford plant in Antwerp who added the tracked element. As for first aid kits, Notek's, K98 fittings and the like the Krauts put them all over the place, having restored a Kubelwagen and a Kettenkrad my research and comparison's with other restorers clearly shows that for the Germans regulations were one thing, availability, practicality and circumstances were quite another. One more thing Fordflathead, books can be wrong there is no substitute for working with the real thing.
Last Edit: Jun 8, 2010 16:55:01 GMT 1 by volkswagen
Post by fordflathead on Jul 10, 2010 14:42:34 GMT 1
Hello again folks, and thanks to volkswagen for his interesting comments. Good thing the discussion goes on as the purpose of forums like this is to widen the knowledge of all of us. Sorry I am late to respond, but I did not have time until now, and I also needed to check some information. Now, this is going to be a long reply, so where do I start? Well, since I have NOT seen any proof yet that the F198T was ever in service by the Wehrmacht, I am still convinced that the trucks on pictures 1,2,4,6,7,9 and 10 as well as member volkswagens are all post-war production, sorry to say! Member volkswagen is right in his decoding of the F198T designation, but you make a mistake if you conclude the first digit, in this case 1, means the year of manufacture. It does NOT, but in many cases will still be the year of manufacture. What it means is the year of design, the first year a certain model was released on the market, a model designation, a system Ford used from the mid ´30s to the late ´40s. And that is a difference! Because several Ford truck models was produced over several years without change, particulary in Europe, they retained their original designation. The US model 51 came in 1935 but was still produced in Köln untill ´39 as the V8-51, then came the G917T and derivatives based on ´38 US 817 models and stayed in production to ´41. Then "our" G198Ts was released based on the ´40 US 018T and produced to ´43, by that time Köln introduced a modified model with bigger radiator and extra grille slots in the hood for better cooling, calling it the G398T. Production of this ran at least into ´46. I believe the G198T was reintroduced after the war and produced until ´49, this because I had one myself, and probably the same thing happened in France that production of the F198T started imediately after the war. There was never anything called the G or F 298T for ´42, 498T for ´44 or G598T for ´45, but apparently a F598T for ´45, but that was post-war as France was liberated in the fall of ´44 and deliveries to Wehrmacht ceased! Who can tell the difference between a F198T and a F598T??? There are two ways I know you can verify the year of manufacture. One is to check the dataplate, Typenschild, mounted on the drivers seat foundation or engine compartment bulkhead above the battery. It should show the Baujahr in all four digits, i.e 1943, 1944 etc. I am still convinced ALL vehicles Ford plants in Europe delivered to the Wehrmacht had this dataplate, or ID tag, with the year of maufacture stamped on. Just like all other manufacturers of equipment for the Wehrmacht did. If the plate does not show a wartime Baujahr, the truck is post-war! The other way, for Köln produced V3000S at least, is to find the serial number stamped on the upper surface of the right frame rail just above the front axle. Should be a six digit number. This number is also on the ID-tag and on the engine block if the original engine is still installed. Reinhard Franks booklet "Ford at war" has a listing of which numbers where manufactured in what year, and also the corresponding model designation. I can print the listing here if someone wants to know. It will be interesting to see what info comes up on the Stihl connection of volkswagens truck. I may speculate it was assembled by Stihl after the war by components supplied by Poissy, or that Stihl was just a dealer of imported trucks that added its own dataplate giving technical spesifications. But I do not know. Using the paint/colour as an indicator of wartime production is a good lead but not a safe one. If we talk about a camouflage pattern yes, but a plane sand yellow no. Imediately after the war automobile paints in fancy colours were probably not in production in Europe. The chemical industry were in ruins. About the only colours available were stocks of camouflage paints produced for the Wehrmacht. Ford by that time were known for not wasting any useful resources. It will not surprise me if Poissy decided to continue using existing stocks of RAL 7028 until production of new colours could commence and become available. But to be sure, if your truck is wartime production retaining original paint, then sand down the overpainted door panels and look for the weight spesifications stenciled on the doors, sand down the right front fender and look for the "license plate" painted there, or on the right end of the bumper, or sand down the left front fender and look for unit markings. Find something? Let me repeat; I am convinced every truck leaving any European Ford factory under contract for the Wehrmacht had the NOTEK bracket installed on the left front fender. EVERY! There should still be four holes, open or welded shut if the original fender is still installed! There may have been trucks delivered to licensed civilian operators without the bracket, but those were probably never used by the Wehrmacht anyway, and should not be "Wehrmachtized" today. So conclusion is your wartime Ford truck of European production in Wehrmacht service should have any or all of the following indicators still present: ID plate with Baujahr stamped in, NOTEK bracket holes, first aid kit holes, rifle bracket holes in floor and back wall or dashboard, pioneer tool bracket holes on fenders and cowl sides, weight stenciling on doors, license plate painted on fender or bumper, unit markings, jerry can bracket holes on rear of fenders, cowl sides, step board, frame behind cab or under cargo body. Reality may differ from specifications, yes, but some of these traces should be somewhere. Go and find SOMETHING and you can relax! Nothing? What more can we say? Lastly, some more words on French Ford wartime production. I have read several places that Poissy (Ford of France) manufactured 1000 V3000S Maultiers, and member volkswagen claim these were assembled in Antwerp of frames and cabs supplied by Poissy (the French style F198T cab with curved door bottoms I suppose?). I have never seen any wartime photo of such a vehicle. Only one I know of is the mentioned ex Victory Europe museum example now residing in Indiana and also claimed to be a field modification as it sports Lloyd carrier running gear, and thus never was factory produced. And I suspect it to be a relatively recent post-war assembly (´70s or earlier), possibly for film use! The frame of the Ford Maultier is identical to the V3000S / G198T. The only difference between the two vehicles is the Maultier has a tubular sub-frame supporting the boggies, wheel arrangement, relocated differential and tracks. This sub-frame is bolted to the stock Ford frame. And an extra set of hand brake lever mechanism is added in the cab to controll the steering. And a shortened driveshaft between the gearbox and differential of course. For those of you not familiar with the late Bart Vanderveen I can tell he was a respected author of several books on military wheeled vehicles and editor of the magazine Wheels & Tracks during the ´80s and ´90s. Grew up in Holland but lived much of his life in Britain. What he wrote was probably 98% correct in average. In Wheels & Tracks # 19 he has an article on the wartime production of Ford in Antwerp. His research revealed that all frames and all cabs for the V3000S were locally produced in Antwerp. In May ´42 Fords own production of cabs ceased, and from then on and untill the liberation in September ´44 General Motors across the street was ordered by the Germans to supply Chevrolet cabs to Ford, modified in front to fit the Ford cowl & dashboard. Probably all the V3000S leaving the Antwerp factory after May ´42 had the GM cab installed. These became known as the B298T. I have one in my "collection". What Poissy supplied to Antwerp acording to the article was not frames and cabs, but running gear including engines. And that make sense as Antwerp had its own production of frames and all the front end sheet metal + cabs supplied by GM, and on the other hand the 3,2t Matford F01/F11 produced at Poissy sported chassis, axles and drivetrain components practically identical to the V3000S except for the Matford being a cab-over-engine with forward controll steering and some altering of brakes and gear shift arrangements. Vanderveen does not mention any production or asembly of Maultiers in Antwerp in his detailed article. Some of the owners of the F198Ts pictured above are members of this forum and reads this, and other members of this forum knows people who owns F198Ts. I beg you, please show me some hard evidence that prooves the F198T was produced during the years 1941 - 44 and saw active service within the Wehrmacht! A dataplate / ID-tag / Typenschild or wartime picture confirming volkswagen is right and prooving me wrong. This case needs to be settled. Please!
Well Flatty me old mate, pardon me for feeling that you have a somewhat low opinion of us WW2 vehicle bods! Whilst you might be convinced of your argument, all I can say is when one is in a hole its best to stop digging.
On the matter of whether or not the Poissy built V3000 served in the German Army or not I would refer you to the Auto & Technik Museum Sinsheim opened in 1981 and the Panzer Museum in Munster both of which have examples of the Poissy built vehicle. I very much doubt that both of these large and well established German museums would have made a mistake. The Sinsheim example is a 1943 unit and Munster’s is 44. I should also point out that I obtained my truck form one of the foremost collectors of WW2 German vehicles in the World Mr Kevin Wheatcroft of the Wheatcroft Collection, www.wheatcroftcollection.com/home.html, having known Kevin for 15 yrs I hardly think that he would either lie to me or be confused as to the provenance of any of vehicle belonging to him.
For the purposes of this discussion we should refer to the truck as Poissy built, the reason being that you wrongly assume that the F198T is a model code utilised by Ford. All the Ford plants in occupied Europe were controlled by Germany. The Germans adapted the first digit of Ford code in order to identify the year of the model, thus models were identified as G or F 1,2,3,4,5. As far as I can ascertain the identification system reverted to Ford Practice after the capitulation. I include this next paragraph which is a translation from the official French Ford history.
“In 1934 Maurice Dollfuss, the head of Automobiles Ford, was looking for a larger manufacturing plant and reached agreement with Emile Mathis to enter into a joint venture with the Mathis company forming Matford in Strasbourg. The company name was changed from Automobiles Ford to SA Française Matford. This venture continued until 1940 when the Strasbourg plant closed and a new one opened in Poissy and the company became Ford Société Anonyme Française (SAF). During this period Ford of France began producing 3ton trucks for the German military and was supplying parts to Ford of Belgium and Holland. Dollfus convinced German authorities in Paris to grant him the authority to manage the French plants independently". In 1941 they began using a new engine the 95hp 3.9L V8. However, because of difficulties at Ford of France, including an attempt at sabotage, in January 1943 the Speer ministry took the first step to include the French subsidiary in the "general Ford plan". This called for coordinating parts production and assembly of military trucks and Maultiers between Ford-Werke and Ford in France as well as Belgium and Holland. From February 1943 in Poissy the building of their own truck was stopped to favour Cologne type." Poissy was liberated in August 1944 and its labour employed to repair the factory”.
I can’t say that I agree with you premise regarding camouflage paint. When the order was given in Feb 43 to discontinue with Dunkelgrau (grey) in favor of Dunkelgelb (tan) most vehicles already in the field were over sprayed in the field but the exterior only. After Feb 43 most vehicles left the factories in tan any vehicles requiring Camouflage were painted in the field, though from late 44 onward most vehicles were left in red oxide and Dunkelgelb applied in cammo pattern owing to the shortage of paint. As for “holes” in panels a 60 year old vehicle is full of em some of them match up and some don’t. I clearly have the spade bracket holes on the left hand side of the engine cowling but none on the wings, wings in my experience of restoring German vehicles are rarely original. My 44 Kubel is a good example all four wings on it when I purchased it were post war replacements from a different vehicle. My Ford also clearly has holes for mounting the winter heating kit and K98 brackets. Again I point out that the Germans often customized in the field! I also have to take issue with your assumptions regarding Stihl. Their official history shows that the factory was bombed flat in early 45 with production not re-starting until 47 and all they made were chainsaws! There is also absolutely no documented evidence of Stihl having assembled Ford trucks! I will photograph and publish on this forum a picture of my typenschild.
Fianaly I should mention that I had the pleasure of knowing Bart Vanderveen who was a great deal of help to me with my Kettenkrad. Bart was very fond of saying “because someone puts it in a book doesn’t make it correct”!
Post by fordflathead on Aug 5, 2010 20:00:21 GMT 1
Hi, and thanks for the reply! OK, so here we go again: Yes, unfortunately this discussion seems to develope into a trench battle between me on one side arguing why the F198T probably never saw Wehrmacht service, and volkswagen on the other side arguing why it probaly did. I indeed hope nobody see this as any sort of personal fight. This is a discussion for all readers to learn and hopefully eventually conclude on what are facts and what is fiction. If me or someone else have to swallow a bitter pill in the process so let it be. I have nothing to loose, only something to gain; -knowledge! As soon as I see any proof, a dated ID-tag or a wartime picture, confirming the F198T was produced for the Wehrmacht, I will give in and accept reality of course. No problem. But so far I have not, so the discussion goes on, and here comes my comments on the previous chapter in a mixed order:
#1 If I understand you right you have concluded the Stihl company did not produce anything but chain saws and the like, wartime or post-war, no Ford trucks, so that path was a dead-end and did not favour any part in the discussion?
#2 Yes, the extract of the official French Ford story can be read in books and on the web. Only 3-ton class of trucks produced during the war for the Wehrmacht by Poissy I can find pictured and described in books and on the web is the COE (forward controll) 3,2-ton Matford F01/F11 series that indeed had the 3,9 ltr engine installed, its drivetrain being mostly identical to the G198T. One interesting site I found on the Web is Wikipedias reference source for its information on Matford; dvole.free.fr/fordsaf/cam.htm This site is in French and looks very professional and well done, and I had the wartime & post-war chapter translated by two different sources, and it at least gives those who whish the F198T was in Wehrmacht use a little bit of hope. This source like others also states main wartime production at Poissy was the 5t F917 and F997 and the 3,2t F01 and F11, plus supply of parts for the V3000 production at Köln, but it mention that MAYBE the V3000 was produced at Poissy from 1943 on. Later in the text the author says the V3000 PROBABLY was built at Poissy. Eigther way he can obviously not confirm it. He also speculate if the F817 was in production during the war, but that is another vehicle alltogether. He also state the F198T was in production post-war. Finally, for the interest of this topic, he claims the former Ford factory (sold in ´41) at Asnieres were used to modyfy German 3-ton trucks (Ford V3000 I guess he means?) into Maultiers. Or was it Opel or Klöckner? Can we conclude anything from this? Nothing more than a hope for the F198T as I see it.
#3 I can not in any of my books or by Google the web find any reference to any Ford designation called G298T, G498T, G598T, F298T, F398T or F498T. Therefore I still stick to the viewpoint that the official Ford Motor Company designation system was practiced even in German controlled factories during the hostilities. But as soon as someone put a proof on the table that volkswagen is right, I will give in. Remember, Dearborn (Ford headquarter Detroit) had a normal business relationship with its European plants at least untill Germany decleared war on the USA in December ´41. As a sideline in case readers did not know, Henry deeply admired Adolf and the prewar German Nazi regime, Henry being a decleared anti-Zionist banning Jews from geting leading positions within the Ford organization. On the other hand Adolf admired Henry for his industrial talent and for his stand against Jews. If I am not wrong, Henry got a high-ranking decoration from the Nazi-Germany leadership for his stand and friendship with the German people.
#4 As for holes in 65-70 years old trucks you are right; there can be holes anywhere, and you never know who put them there. If you are in doubt you better check the lifestory of your truck. Remember, probably many of the F198Ts saw French military service in the late ´40s and early ´50s as you can see in the first picture of this tread, maybe other countries too. Could it be that yours is one of those and that the holes came in this part of its life?
#5 So there are F198Ts displayed in Sinsheim and Munster? Good news! Can any of the readers provide a picture of the dataplate of these so we can confirm facts and settle this case? Because I contacted both museums and asked for information on their vehicles, but after close to 3 weeks still no reply. It is normal that state owned museums do not bother answering questions from the general public even though they are required to do so by law, but at least I hoped the private Sinsheim museum would be more service-minded. But it may be vacation time, and then just 3 weeks....., so there is still hope. As a sideline here, not knowing anything about the situation at the two mentioned museums, it is not uncommon that motorized artefacts are displayed in false identity in museums around the world, private or state owned, particulary aircraft. For example there are hardly a B-17 Flying Fortress painted in correct identity anywhere, same thing for Catalinas, many P-51 Mustangs, Spifires, Corsairs, some Spanish built "Me 109"s, "He 111"s, "Ju52"s and so on. And I will not be surprised if a handfull or so of vehicles displayed in military museums around also are presented in false identity. That probably goes for some post-war produced G-13 "Hetzers" and OT810s, possibly T-34s, Hotchkiss jeeps, CJ Jeeps and others.
#6 At least we seemingly agree on one thing, that Mr Vanderveen was a capable author with great knowledge in the field of military vehicles. And I absolutely agree on the saying that "because someone puts it in a book doesn´t make it correct"! Why Vanderveen did not mention anything in his thorough article about Maultier production and Poissy supplying cabs to Ford Antwerp if that really took place, I do not know. Two possibilities: 1) He knew this did not happen. 2) He did not know and was wrong in indicating that GM Antwerp was the sole supplier of cabs for Ford Antwerp. So even his writing was not allways correct? For me though, as long as I do not see any proof he was wrong, I have to suppose he was right!
#7 But even Big Time collectors may be wrong from time to time, like most of the rest of us do. As I know nothing about this cases connection with the named collector or his knowledge of historical facts, I will not indicate anything against any of you. In general though, to talk for myself as a collector (on a much smaller scale) and others I know, we sometimes buys stuff that turns out for some reason or another not to be as exciting as expected in the begining. If we for some reason (economic, lack of space, lost interest etc) at a point decides to get rid of some stuff, it will normally be the least exciting item that has to go first, if it is possible to sell or trade away. The outsider, the one that really does not fit innto the core theme of the collection. That´s the way it is, right?
#8 Every vehicle that was ever licenced for street use should have a title or registration document. It tells the year of manufacture. You owners of these Fords, go and check yours, and we get the case settled. You know what, -if I am not wrong again, it will not surprise me if quite a number of the G198Ts and F 198Ts in collectors hands across Europe today originated from Norway within the past 2 decades. Yes, no kidding! If volkswagen or other readers have vehicles they suspect was at some point exported from Norway, then let me know the chassis serial number and I can check with the Departement of Transportation historic archives and get information about the year of manufacture. Of course this can be done in any western country I guess, where you know your vehicle has been licenced at an early stage of its life. Then you get the facts settled, and discussion over!!!! Some of the owners of the above pictured trucks must have a title to show us? There may though be examples of confusion on the year of manufacture for some vehicles left behind by the Wehrmacht and later sold off to private buyers, particulary some prewar militarized civilian type vehicles enrolled into the Wehrmacht, for example motorcycles, but if they had a dataplate still intact at the time of sale with the Baujahr showing, which most had, the information in the historic archive should be correct and the year of manufacture should be on the title.
#9 The paint and colour: That is rigth, everybody in the hobby knows the sand colour was introduced as standard base colour in the spring of ´43 for all new manufacture of vehicles. It is also obvious that the older equippment originaly painted dark grey that were oversprayed with the new sand colour in the field or at depots, was so only externally. I do not think they wasted time and resources in painting the interior of tanks and trucks. On the other hand, many older vehicles were NOT oversprayed with tan at all, particulary in the northern extremes of Das Reich, like Norway, where there were no active frontline and few combat operations, and the dark grey probably blended well into the landscape. Ok, my friend, your Ford is tan inside the cab and as so obviously was produced after the introduction of the new paint in February ´43. If I understood it right you earlier wrote Ford ceased production of the V3000 at Poissy late in ´42. In the extract of the Ford of France history it says the contrary, that production of French designs stopped in Februar ´43 and the Cologne/Köln design was then introduced. This is confusing. Which model stopped being manufactured in late ´42 / early ´43? The F198T or the F01 / F11? Other places I have read the only V3000 related activities Poissy were involved in were manufacture of parts for the V3000s being asembled in Köln, Amsterdam and Antwerp, as well as spares for in-service vehicles. If your first statement is right, then your truck should be a F198T (1941) or F298T (1942) according to your definition of the designation system. But then it should be painted dark grey inside, which it is not? But if the Ford of France history is right and tells us the Cologne type means the F198T-type, and that it was introduced into production in early ´43 at Poissy, then yours should be a, what we now must call, F398T (1943) or F498T (1944) if it is wartime production for the Wehrmacht. This is of course absolutely possible, and I hope for the sake of you and all other owners of these French Fords that this is the case, that production started in ´43, also indicated by the sand colour. (Then the Maultier in piucture #3 and the dark grey one in picture #9 & 10 above are wrongly painted! Minor issue?)
Yes, I may have bogged myself down to the waist in a hole filled with my stupid and worthless arguments, my books may be wrong, no pictures were taken during the war of the F198T, the left front fender has been replaced on all survivors, all lack original markings and nobody put the facts on the Internet. It is up to you readers to judge. To my comfort though I am not alone and without support. There are several collectors out there who asks the same question about the F198Ts wartime service: Where is the proof? An ID-tag, an original title document, a wartime photo!!!! I have seen ID-tags with correct Baujahr stamped on Köln, Antwerp and Amsterdam V3000Ss, but no wartime French F198T tags. Please show me!
ill jot down a few collected thoughts here. there is a fantastic series of documents I found on the net. detailed research findings of Fords operations in Europe during WW2. entitled "Ford-Werke's Relationship with Other Ford Facilities in Occupied Europe" it states a few facts including-
"the comparison was made between 35,501 units assembled by Ford Belgium (with US components) for the US army between December 1944 and May 1945, and 11,025 units assembled for the Germans over a 5 year period of occupation"
So it seems the allies didnt just carry on what the German were producing but imported their own components to get US style production up and running in western Europe.
the allies liberated the Poissey plant in August 1944 and the F198T according to the internet sources was produced from Febuary 1945. So there was a period of non activity for 5-6 months. If Poissey had full production facilities and were stamping V3000S sheet metal components they would probably have continued the cologne type cab. what the Americans may have done was take what tooling the French did have from an older production model ( or import the tooling themselves ) and get Poissey producing the 1936 3/4 ton cab. They then split this cab and added 12 inches in the middle to suit the 3 ton chassis. Since the 1936 dash would no longer fit a very simple hand made was installed to span the width.
my truck would appear to be the first style made (and quite unmolested). there are no airvents on the side of the cowl. no holes at the back of the bonnet for the big Ford badge. the blow torch water heater fixings on the rear of the LH front guard are present (as per the wehrmacht einheits guards ) and it has a very low chassis number indicating (based on Belguim production figures) it was made before the end of the war. the headlights are Marchel, the gauges are in French (some stamped 45) and SAF is prominent on most parts.
so if based on body pressing my truck is considered the earliest variant of the F198T and is confirmed as being post liberation production, then all trucks of this type are not German.
the raises all sorts of questions about postwar production. one that comes to mind is why are the Dutch and German post war V3000S trucks almost identical and the French so different. Id say the F198T was quickly slapped together to get the French underway and was considered a short term solution that ended up being producded up to 1947(?).
the chassis tag for these are a very small 60mmx60mm square riveted to the LH drivers seat riser.
FORD SAF Poissey (S&O) Type F198T or F598T etc No. XXXX Moteur XXXX
and later ones have an additional line stating the tonnage
German tags will be much larger to include alot more info including axle loads, year of production, supression code, etc etc and be located in the engine bay
its quite likely that the original paint on a F198T will be a military looking medium to dark green.
Post by fordflathead on Nov 1, 2010 19:12:15 GMT 1
Hello again everybody! Sorry once more I am late to reply! Yes, I agree with mvnut about his theory concerning the orign of the F198T. That is what I think too. The cab sides are very similar to pre-war French Ford trucks. To get production up and running again after the only customer for French Ford military trucks, the Wehrmacht, dissapeared about September `44, and all technical cooperation with Köln came to an end, Ford at Poissy decided to go for a makeshift solution as follows: The chassis which is very similar to the F-01W / F-11W was already in production in-house, including all the running gear like engines and axles. They had no production of 198T type cabs, but dusted off the toolings for the pre-war 1935-style cabs, modified its with and the cowl area, made the simplified instrumen panel as mvnut describes, made press forms for a simplified hood, produced copies of the simplified flat fenders, and either made press forms for the grille and hood sides or imported these parts from the Atwerpen or Amsterdam Ford plants. And some alteration of the steering arrangement. Viola! -the post-war F198T was born!
We learn as we go. Only now did I notice that on at least some F198Ts, there is a strip of filler plate all around the middle of the cab to fill the gap left then the old `35-style cab construction was split in two halves along the middle and moved apart to fit the wider 198T design! This fact strengthen the theory that the F198T was a post-hostilities French effort to get at least something rolling off the assembly line aimed at a limited civilian market. Wonder if this split-and-filler is a feature on all the F198Ts, or maybe production methods were improved later?
The production figures at the Antwerpen plant as mvnut mention sounds impressive, but that is just as long as you do not know the following: The contracts for the US military only involved ASSEMBLY of Partly Knocked Down GMCs and Dodge weapons carriers. It is a lot, lot quicker to open a crate, kick away the planks, jack up the chassis, put on the wheels, cargo body and canvas hood, fill up the fueltank and drive out of the factory hall, than it is to manufacture a B298T from sheet steel blanks up! That is why so high figures. According to Bart Vanderveen, Wheels & Tracks # 21 I think, in the same period mvnut describes, Antwerpen MANUFACTURED only about 500 V3000S type trucks!
To member v3000s: The link to media.fordvehicles.com will not open on my computer. The link media.ford.com is OK and I have been aware of this for a year or so. I admit I have not read every word of this report, but I can not se any reference to which specific models were produced in France for the Wehrmacht, except for one place which states 1000 Ford Maultiers were assembled, this appearently beeing carried out at the former Ford plant at Asnieres. It is unclear if these were built from the ground up or just modification of existing trucks. The one in the Victory museum in Indiana is certainly not one of those. It is a fake, a post-war prop. And sorry to say, so are all the other F198Ts around today painted in Wehrmach livery. Fake! But I am glad this discussion came up so we could get the issue clearified. Don`t let your head hang down. If post-war F198Ts are not your thing, there are plenty of genuine WWII vehicles out there waiting to be rescued, both Axis and Allied. Particulary the bigger trucks which few wants to own need to be rescued now before the few remaning are cut up for scrap. Keep up your good work!
yes some people have been capitalizing on the lack of info about the French Fords.
We are moving along with the resto of my F198T. Im quite enjoying the project as the truck is in very good condition. I am restoring it to our usual high standard. luckily I have the tool kit and the hardware from the wooden tray.
currently the front king pin assembly is being reconditioned. the V8 Pulled down and last weekend we removed the doubler plates in the chassis ready for blasting. the tyres have been removed from the rims and some paint color matched the French green.
the truck will be a very nice and possibly the earliest example of the F198T. ill finish it similar to the restored one on the first page of this thread. at least on completion it will have a good swap value with some allied vehicles im looking at.