I have been askjed to start a new thread on this subject.
I have some additional details which may be of use to people who are going to restore and paint their VW/Type 82 Kubelwagen the correct colour. I discovered this following information when I was researching for the correct colour of my Kubelwagen.
When an order was given the colour change was often not introduced immediately on the date the order was given!
'Sand Colour' was introduced as RAL7028 by Heeres Mitteilung n°181 dated 18/2/43 and so most people assume that any VWs produced on and after that date were all painted Sand Colour (DUNKELGELB). This assumption, however, is INCORRECT!
The fact is that due to overstocking on the 'old' PANZERGRAU paint, VW only started to use the 'new' DUNKELGELB sand colour paint as late as 10/11/43 (*) starting with VW82 Kübelsitzwagen chassis no. 2029566 / body no. 30678
(*) source : Auftragsmeldung 2926 (Projektnr 1100); VW Slg.Bochum /9.016; Kriegsprogramm Kfz IV/43 See : NA Washington RG243 Section 1/77 a 10
This information might annoy some people and settle a few arguments too! - maybe some people now have to repaint their Kubel the correct colour!
This is very interesting info indeed. My chassi (2-037687) was manufactured in may 1944 according to documentation. But when I stripped it down and cleaned it up I realized the original color on the front end was Dunkelgrau (RAL 7021). When I studied it more closely I say the whole chassi have been painted in this color - but the front was best protected from weather and rust and therefore the color was still in good condition. I have been discussing this with "experts" for years now - but they just state - 1943 = sandgelb. Your new information spread some light over my chassi and years of wondering.
Another strange thing is all variations found on surviving Kübels. People have been discussing why some early cars have factory made parts from a later production type installed, often saying it is done after the war and stating it is not original - but I don´t agree. My theory is the only real proof I have found so far - original pics. If you look at the pic below from mounting 166:s at Porsche in Stuttgart there is clearly three used Kübels, one with reg. plate, and in rough painting - and a Kübel chassi - waiting for maintenance. The other pic is from Wolfsburg may 1945 and is showing two early and two late manufacturerd Kübels, and my guess is they also have been transported back to Wolfsburg for repairs. I cant see any other explonation why these very early Kübels is in the factory as late as 1945. (166 pic from "VW Kübel und Schwimmwagen"/Waffen Arsenal - Wolfsburg pic from "Der VW Kübelwagen typ 82" by J.Piekalkiewicz).
Hi Nick, I think you have misunderstood the photo you posted showing all those Schwimmwagen and some Kubelwagen all in one workshop.
This as you say is Porsche at Stuttgart, but all those Schwimmwagen are from the first 124 semi-hand-made pre-production vehicles batch that were assembled in Stuttgart and not by the Kdf Werk at Worfsberg.
Note; the SS numbered Schwimmwagen is not a VW166 but more like a VW 128, but again with some differences from the standard VW128, it having a narrow windscreen and some front inner hull differences.
Consequently this is Porche's prototype workshop and the VW Kubels are for sure to be there for conducting experimental and trials work on them, whilst at the same time Kubelwagen mass production was happening further north at Wolfsberg.
There is a clearer version of this photo where some of the chassis numbers can be read on the pre-produtcion Schwimmwagen, they are 166/44 and 166/47 for example. Therefore this photo would be approximately mid 1942, when all vehicles would have been darkgrey in colour anyway.
The second photo showing a mixture of VW Kubelwagen in a damaged factory (probably Wolfsberg but not necessarily, could be somewhere else), is most likely as you say to be some vehicles that have been returned from the front for major repair. This is not unusual as all German military vehicles from panzers , through halftracks down to various Kubelwagen types and motorcycles, had a "Return to Factory" repair programme as part of their planned continution of use, its standard planning for all armies in all countries.
Thanks for clearing out the Schwimmwagen pic, that make scence. Also interesting to hear of the "return to factory" program, then a lot of repairs made does not have to be done after the war, and it explains for instance, why an early Kübel might have later manufactured original parts welded - I guess they used what they had in stock - so it could be delivered back in service immedietly. I have to say this - my postings here are based on my personal research and some common scence - trying to get a discussion started - because this is a very interesting subject. I mean if all restorers paint their vehicles in late camo - then we are re-writing history a bit, in 50 years when we are gone, people are going to believe that is the only right camo. Like to read more postings from you Paul. Regards / Nick...
Hi Nick, Regarding the "return to factory repair programme", there must be a German name for this ?.
Look at it this way, all armies, WWII and modern usually have several levels of repair and maintenance categories that they apply to all vehicles, again I do not know what the Germans in WWI used but it would be something like;- 1st - local kompanie/battalion level repair facilities 2nd - divisional level repair facilities 3rd -Korps/Armee level repair facilities 4th -Homeland/Reich factory level repair facilities 5th -problems too bad, so scrapped at any of the 1st, 2nd. 3rd or 4th facilities
Obviously which facility is used depends on the amount of repair that is needed.
Homeland/Reich repair/rebuild facilities must exist for everything, no vehicle lasts for ever, it either has battle damage or wear-and-tear damage., for example most Reichwehr Kubelwagen are at least 10 years old before WWII even started, many early lEpkw are already 5 years old in 1940, and the real wear-and-tear of fighting WWII has not really started at this date, imagine what the first year of action in Russia did to vehicles that were there.
The best thought is to assume that there were repair facilities for all and every type of vehicle, gun and weapon, its just a case of finding out who it was and where it was. it could be the original manufacturer or a nominated sub-contractor.
And of course when these vehicles were being rebuild in the Homeland/Reich most of the new parts they get will be whatever is then in current production.
Unfortunately there is little written about the subject, Panzer repair facilities are better known, with some tanks being rebuilt and updated several times e.g. Pz IV first built as an Ausf F1 becomes an F2 at first rebuild and an Ausf H at another rebuild, we all know this was so, and softskin vehicles were no different, but finding the evidence is very difficult.
my kubel body number is in the early 200XX. hours of examination showed that the underside of the dash, engine compartment and inner sills were Grey. the outside of the body and the inside of the doors were a very light tan colour. so that doesnt fit with you research. why would that be??
the chassis suggests Dec 1942. we have sanded the body in several places down to bare metal and it has only ever been tan on the outside and grey inside as described. all parts are original. there is evidence of the original light tan being overpainted with a darker Ord tan. no stencils or markings were found.
there are pics on the vw166.com forum. also see www.hrs.org.nz and click the vehicle projects page to see the car as was in 1963.
Ref the VW colouring as you have described above, basically I have no idea how to explain away your colours. especially there when there is nothing else under the outside tan.
However one possibility is that pre the standard darkyellow of early 1943 onwards, some earlier VW82 did leave the factory ready painted yellow for North Africa, and in late 1942 this could still be happening with newly manufactured vehicles as the NA fighting is still happening when you VW was manufactured.
There is a well known photo of VW 82 #5000 leaving the assembly line in this tan colour but with baloon tyres fitted, but baloon tyres would not last long post-war and normal tyes/rims would get fitted if indeed they all had balloons in the first place.
However I would have still thought that all VW components parts would have all started off darkgray and the yellow applied on top, however if this is a factory applied tan for the reasons noted above, heaven knows how they went about it, maybe even stripping off some of the gray paint befor adding tan ?!?!?
It also seems obvious that this VW never got to NA and if manufactured as late in the NA campaign as it seems to have been, that is no surprise.
No idea why your kubel should be painted like that - are you sure the body paint colour is original? and do you know anything of the history of your Kubel? Which campaign it saw service in etc.
From what I understand your Kubel appears to have been built close to the issue of the order to change colour from Panzer Grau to Sand colour.
I had heard - but cant remember source reference - that they Abi Budd continued to paint the inside of the Kubel bodies Panzer grau whilst the new Dunklegelb was applied to the outside - again as a means of using up the existing paint supplies.
Many photographs exist to show the mismatch of Panzergrau chassis/ wheels colours with the Dunklegelb bodies made by Ambi Budd - during this tyransitional period I am sure there must have been many things tried and tested etc - there will always be exceptions to the rules.