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Post by luessenhoff on Nov 2, 2012 11:17:56 GMT 1
Very interesting Fred !
Do you know whether the vehicles were mechanically tested? (Were the engines running at that time?) Or were the engines just placed to be visually complete and nothing more than that?
I visited the museum twice in the 90s ... I remember it was extremely expensive, more than 900 Belgian francs. And although I did not notice this myself, I heard other people claiming they had to pay an extra charge for each picture they wanted to take.
Why it was closed ... I don't know. According to some story, a restaurant was opened near the museum. Because of that, the museum restaurant lost a lot of its income and they could no longer cover the costs that had to be made for the museum itself.
I don't know if this is true ... it's just what I heard back in the day.
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Post by fred on Nov 2, 2012 18:07:45 GMT 1
Hi Lussenhoff,
note ; we are taking Axis vehciles only here, know nothing of the condition of allied vehicles, but they should be better for obvious reasons.
The vehicles were originally just to be part of several diaoramas' in the new museum, so were never to be moved, certaily not under their own power, and very poor lighting ensured they could not be seen very well. Do you not remember how dark it was in that Museum ?
Mechanically tested !!!! sorry I have to laugh here, for the Axis stuff, probably never, so many were missing engines or half engines, or gearboxes etc., etc., you have to realise just how little Arend had of some of these vehicles to begin with.
I helped a guy who bought one of the lEpkw just before Kruse bought the collection, it was minus front differential, front axles, inlet manifold and carburettors, starter motor, dynamo, oil tank, and had the rear body of another vehicle on it. Only one dashboard instrument and much much was else missing.
For example, the SdKfz 250 called "Grief", again sold before the collection went to the USA, no gearbox, no engine, 100% new made armoured body (but an excellent copy made in France) and the chassis was a shortened by one axle "soft metal" tractor chassis not the armoured chassis of the 250 SPW. Absolutely no original 250 in the vehicle.
Again the two sWS tractors, now back in Europe I believe, all that there was originally were two chassis with about 4 wheels each, and absolutely nothing else to start with, how much original material was obtained later for these I do not know, not much I expect, so just made up, same for the Nebelwerfer Maultier, same for the 3 and 12 Ton tractors.
Yes it was an expensive museum to visit, and photos also were an extra charge and again costly, they wanted you to buy the coloured catalogue instead. Which I did, still have it.
Why it closed I do not really know, but believe there were disagreements between the Museum and local authorities, but most of all it was in the wrong place and had too few visitors to make it pay.
Originally Guy Arend was looking all over Western Europe for suitable locations for the Museum, where he could get a lot of passing trade, the South of England was one, Normandy was another, but of course he was from Belgium so in Belguim it was eventually sited, but not a good location.
But when it came to sell the collection, suddenly every vehicle was a top dollar excellent restoration and sold that way.
oh dear !!! cheers Paul
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Post by Hans on Nov 2, 2012 20:36:16 GMT 1
Hello Paul ,
your last line tells almost everything what is to say about these vehicles , most of the vehicles are very nice restoration projects , if the price was right !! And not like now , as a lot of people see this collection as an example of fine restored vehicles .
Heared stories about people measuring up some of these vehicles to restore theirs in the same way . If you would spend some time looking at detailed original pics you would see all the differences .
Ofcourse i also would like to have some of these vehicles , but not for the prices some people will pay , its not all bad what is offered , only the condition and prices are !!
Luessenhoff , you're totally right about the 3 Ton Blitzes , they are more common than the 1,5 ton. Original wartime 1,5 ton Blitzes are rare . Even good post-war are harder to find. But , the 3 Ton Allrads are getting scarce and expensive too , same goes for the 4x2 . Must have had 6 or more Allrads in the last 20 odd years , got one fine example left .
As for the Borgwards , almost all models are hard to find !! Even the 3 Tonner , the 1 Tonnes are more common but too small for now a days people ;-) !!
Hans.
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Post by luessenhoff on Nov 3, 2012 11:00:40 GMT 1
Fred first of all thank you so much for the valuable information ! Finally someone who can shed some light on that museum. Yes, I remember very well how dark it was ... and how far most vehicles were placed from the visitors. Some were almost within hand's reach (I remember the Tatra 57K) but most could hardly be seen. I also remember that many vehicles were "decorated" with mud, e.g. that big Opel Blitz with an Omnibus chassis. (once again a creation of fantasy? I suspect they made just another Pritschenwagen of it because they couldn't find an Omnibus body) www.auctionsamerica.com/events/feature-lots.cfm?SaleCode=MM12&ID=r1067&Order=runorder&feature=grouping=But beautiful it is by all means! I have 3 catalogues of the museum ... two small versions, slightly different in content, and one big book which includes wartime pictures of the vehicles and some pictures of the restoration process and of some vehicles in the condition in which they were found. They allegedly went as far as the Italian Alps ... I am glad you tell us that many of those vehicles only had "half" engines and all that. Of course, not that I am totally surprised but still ... I thought that because of the quite courageous operation that museum already was, maybe they tried really hard to make the vehicles "complete" in every way. It could have been a possibility. Sometimes they also had post-war cars, perhaps without knowing it. Do you remember the Tatra 87? www.remarkablecars.com/for-sale/showproduct.php?product=15927By its "face" you can tell it is a postwar example. Postwar T87s had their headlights incorporated into the car's body, whereas the pre-1945 productions had quite emphasized lights, compare: (pre)wartime: www.tatra-club.com/graphics/vote/15/94/full/393827643_e87d8faaa3.jpgpostwar: www.shorey.net/Auto/Eastern%20European/Tatra/1947%20Tatra%2087%20Sedan-slvr-fVr=mx=.jpgI think Arend is a Luxembourgian but it could be that he lived in Belgium. Maybe it was their luck they could sell to an American museum? Even here in Europe real connoisseurs (for German vehicles) are hard to find ... so in the U.S. probably nearly no one could judge the vehicles' quality really well. They look very credible so ... Yes Fred I remember the "Greif" small halftrack, I had somewhat forgotten about it but indeed now it strikes me that this one is not in the Kruse museum.
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Post by luessenhoff on Nov 3, 2012 11:28:47 GMT 1
Hi Hans Yes I think every enthusiast like us would like to have some of those vehicles to start with... But next to the price another problem will be getting paperwork for some of those vehicles... let's just imagine we would buy that Adler ... Adlerwerke doesn't exist anymore. Then every hope for a Fahrzeugbrief is lost... because I think the automobile industry is your last chance for help. So I'm afraid we will have to stick to dreaming?
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Post by Hans on Nov 4, 2012 8:41:28 GMT 1
Don't know in what country you are , but here i never asked any automobile industry for help with a "Fahrzeugbrief" !! Ofcourse an old Fahrzeugbrief would help but here a bill of sale is normally good enough. From the States is indeed more difficult becaus of all the taxes you have to pay !
In Germany its enough to have a copy Fahrzeugbrief from another vehicle to show they had a license to be on the road. In Belgium its even more easy for oldtimer vehicles.
Yes , think we all can keep on dreaming about these vehicles ,because only the whealty collectors/investors will buy this collection. Apart from the few smart ones who know where they are talking about ;-) !!
Hans.
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Post by fred on Nov 4, 2012 10:49:30 GMT 1
Hi Leussendorf,
There was never any chance of these vehicles being treated as individual pieces of gold, like a private collector would do, Guy Arend, when I visited him lived in a chataux near Ciney in Belgium, and before the Aarlon museum he had set up a museum in Bastogne in the 1970's, similar to the Aarlon museum in layout and quality, but much smaller. So from Luxembourg or Belgium I do not know.
So between the early 1970's and the middle 1980's he collected all the vehicles you saw at Aarlon, a huge achivement in one way but obviously there was no time in a schedule like that to see to every vehicle in great detail and restore it to an acceptable level, so hence my previous comment about him giving two months to his workers to complete even the most difficult reconstruction.
I can remember running about the south of England trying to find the Steyr Kfz 21 Kommanderwagen that was in storage here, so I could take photos and dimensions of the "boot" area as this was missing from his Kfz 21. Could not find it and so he had his workers make up the rear boot area from some photos. Have never seen the result.
cheers PAUL
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Post by fireindi1964 on Nov 6, 2012 9:35:57 GMT 1
Hello all,
you know I am very interessting in Borgward.
Like my opinion is the offer of the small Borgward a absolut rare item. I get a contact to a specialist of the auction . He send me some production ID Nombers. So my idea is right, its a wrong restored Borgward 1,5to, L2300. The combination of Frame No and egine No says it was produced with the 6 cyl 2345 ccm engine. What I cant say is was it a WH cab or normal civilian cab.
The museum describtion is totally wrong to "this" Borgward, its for the smaller 1 to.
But I dont know if a high price is correct for such resore. I think Hans and Hans-Erik know how dificult and expensiv it is to get original parts!
... and for me its only document the Infos, hope for a contact to the new owner... and dreaming of the "Lotto jack pot" ;-)
best regards
Henning
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Post by fireindi1964 on Nov 6, 2012 9:43:23 GMT 1
Hello all, you know I am very interessting in Borgward. Like my opinion is the offer of the small Borgward a absolut rare item. I get a contact to a specialist of the auction . He send me some production ID Nombers. So my idea is right, its a wrong restored Borgward 1,5to, L2300. The combination of Frame No and egine No says it was produced with the 6 cyl 2345 ccm engine, in 1940 What I cant say is was it a WH cab or normal civilian cab. The museum describtion is totally wrong to "this" Borgward, its for the smaller 1 to. But I dont know if a high price is correct for such resore. I think Hans and Hans-Erik know how dificult and expensiv it is to get original parts! ... and for me its only document the Infos, hope for a contact to the new owner... and dreaming of the "Lotto jack pot" ;-) best regards Henning ps. 2 vintage pictures from old E-bay auctions Attachments:
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Post by fireindi1964 on Nov 6, 2012 9:47:10 GMT 1
second picture Attachments:
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Post by luessenhoff on Nov 6, 2012 14:42:43 GMT 1
Hello Hans I live in Belgium ... really the technical control authority will never give you a number plate for any car without papers. You really need to have papers if don't you can forget about it, no way that a bill of sale suffices. Maybe very recently the rules have been made more flexible I don't know, but I've done some research and the federation for Belgian old-timers confirms: keep your hands away from cars without papers because chances of getting them registered are not so high. In their eyes, only an authentic stamped document, preferrably from the automobile factory itself is a proof that it is a real old-timer. I know indeed in Germany it's easier, you can use the the numbers of another similar car (e.g. a demolished car). I don't know about the Netherlands. That's why I expressed the "no-papers status" of those auctioned cars as my main concern. The vehicles too expensive? Probably, maybe ... maybe some will still be an an accteptable price I don't know ... but anyhow spending fortunes on a car which you cannot register ... Fireindi1964 --> www.jmsieber.cz/muzeum/index.php?id=589&lastid=584&level=2 Nach Augenmaß sieht dieser Borgward glaubwürdig aus, allerdings glaubwürdiger als das auf der Versteigerung abgebildete Fahrzeug. Das Führerhaus ist erheblich kleiner, es war mir bisher nicht aufgefallen aber nach dem Lesen deiner Erklärung fiel mir tatsächlich auf, dass 's Führerhaus vom zum Kauf angebotenen Borgward verhältnismäßig zu groß aussieht wenn man danach auf die Pritsche kuckt. Ich bin kein Borgward-Kenner, aber deinem Kommentar kann man nur beipflichten.
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Post by luessenhoff on Nov 9, 2012 11:16:40 GMT 1
Have just done some comprehensive photo research and I've come to the conclusion that the doors, maybe even the whole cabine of the Adler are not correct. Doors too big, the original wartime pictures show much smaller doors. So yes, the more investigation work you do , the clearer it becomes that quite a lot is not right about those German vehicles.
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Post by Hans on Nov 9, 2012 18:46:10 GMT 1
Well , that was my general idea , warning people not to get too exited about these vehicles , don't treat them as they are offered. Treat them as nice restoration projects , a "need to be totally restored" vehicle , and pay accordingly for it !!
Wich, i'm afraid, is not going to happen ;-) !!
Anyhowe we'll see after Dec. 8 wich people where fooled , or not !! Saw several grand ads already in the militairy vehicle magazine's !!
If you can , post some war-time pics of the Adler please , am curious how its suppozed to look ! Have got a few doors for the Adler Kübelwagen but no vehicle to put them in !!
Hans.
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Post by luessenhoff on Nov 10, 2012 14:45:40 GMT 1
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Post by Hans on Nov 10, 2012 15:56:41 GMT 1
Hmm , could be the donor vehicle was a civy car ? the "torpedo" is also completely different. Altough the interior looks Lkw !!
Take in mind they made the body from pics , so the dimensions from the doors are easily different . Don't know a surviving example of this vehicle so taking correct measurements is difficult , altough now a days taking measures from a pic is more easy , there are special drawingprograms for it, have seen it at a restorationcompany a few years ago .
Importing from the States is expensive , you have to pay 21% VAT and importduty wich i don't remember the amount of. Tought it to be 8% , thats over salesprice and transport costs added !! So in short ad +/- 30 odd % extra . And bare in mind you have to pay the auctioneer more than 20 % above the purchaseprice !!
You don't need a road registration to import the car, import it assembled as parts. Only when you want to put it on the road after restoration the problems start !!
Use to go to Belgium to get papers , live only 5 Km from the border !!
Hans
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